In both cases, mans mind is wholly incapable of real understanding. They tend to carry on for a long time about it and end up calling people heretic (Ive seen this done on both sides of the debate though ) as the conversation ensues. I dont know why I didnt think of this earlier. We are glad that you do. Because he did not adhere to the beliefs of his well-known pastor. Jeff S (and B for that matter), you sound like a good and kind man and a thoughtful speaker. The hard part about this is I dont think these folks even realize what they are doing. I am loving this discussion!!!!!! (Sorry, elastigirl, but you were so honest about the kind of God we all want that I have to use your example.) In fact, I've heard him preach stuff that would set Calvinists' hair (and beards) on fire. Why didnt he write a short book on a more important subject, like Robert Burtons The Anatomy Of Melancholy, written after Calvins death? I was taught for years that my salvation was only a happy side effect of Gods bringing glory to Himself- and after years of trying to rationalize how horrible things that happen are scripted for us by God- and after years of listening to systematic theology that seeks to cram all the unexplainable nature and mystery of God into a neat, cut and dried smugness with a pat answer to everything- I am like a kid in a candy store. In addition to the Holy Scriptures as the most important norm, Calvinism serves, apart from Calvin's own theology, as an independent continuation of the theological work of others including that of Augustine and Luther, as well as the works of Reformers such as Philip Melanchthon, Martin Bucer, Heinrich Bullinger, and Theodore Beza, all of whom My jaw dropped open when I read the first paragraph of your post. A must-read article from Christa Browns blog: http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/2013/09/dont-mess-with-texas-baptists_2.html, Im sorry that I was not clear. To breath it. Again, this idea that humans had no will to act is not something that the WCF, RC Sproul, or any Calvinist I know believes. I will never forget hearing so many Christians actually try to reason that we have to accept, even rejoice, that this must have been Gods plan for these precious young people. There are few things harder to deal with than love that is condescending and devoid of respect. c) I want to move conversations about abuse beyond the Calvinism discussion because I think its a massive red herring. I have tried to track the historical development of the non-Calvinist position. He or she who has the bigger gun or knife or bombhe or she who has the juggernaut of platform or Church Leadership seniorityis the one who gets to compel others to their point of view. As well as giving off a strong aroma of the No True Scotsman fallacy. This was the feeling my wife and I got upon entering the world of neocalvinism in 2008. They should not get to define theology that has been around much longer than them. 5) Likewise, everything we do for others should NOT be because we love them, but to bring glory to God. In fact, with respect and not intending to hurt feelings, it is the Calvinists who are misrepresenting their own doctrine by refusing to acknowledge the contradictions (whichthey do this by arguing that truth really cant be known). He started out not sure where he stood. For example, I will admit that I do not see how a good, all powerful God can exist while evil also exists. These accusations are often followed by the fact that although they cant explain away the opposing verses, nonetheless they know their view is the truth. I do think though, there is a difference between a Calvinist and a Calvinista. In time, becoming a stronger branch. I dont think my faith would have survived such a horrible doctrine. Its all up to God. Actually Ive always thought of the hyper crowd in any area as the ones who want to get in your face and tell everyone how if they are not with them they are against them. I looked into becoming a Calvinist years ago but did not see it in the Scripture, and I tried hard to do so. Apparently Imade some remark that all infants who die go to heaven. God is bigger than us and is beyond our understanding except for some basics. For my part, I honestly dont understand a need to defend Calvinism, or Luther, or the RCC, or Baptists, etc., etc. Can I ask you what your views are on RC Sproul and the Ligonier contingent? I think these are minor issues, but it is what it is. Our Beliefs - SOTERIOLOGY 101 But in doing so, I fear that people who might get a lot of benefit from Calvinism might be rejecting it for the wrong reasons. He is a loving man in spite of the baloney flung his way. And if the term is ambiguous, then I its wise to be careful and specific in criticism. All I can say is that I do the best I have with the mind Ive been given. Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Lutheranism all come to mind off the top of my head. If the plumb line for perfection is NO yeast, then of what relevance is the statement: The bread is not as yeast-y as it could be. However, Brian (a Calvinist) brought up a new topic and I decided since there was so much dialogue, I could easily keep the debate to one thread. 10 Things You Should Know about Reformed Theology Grabs your hand and raises your arm & enthusiastically shows you off as The winner and still the champ! Feels your joy with you. @ Bridget: Deb and are are well aware of the criticism we are receiving from some non-Calvinists because we feature sermons by Wade Burleson. I think you will see that there are real differences: http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/reformed-theology/arminianism/calvinism-vs-arminianism-comparison-chart/, What do you think I see within Calvinism that might make it hard for me to accept that system? I think you may have answered that in your post: I told her that we, as non-Calvinists, have to move beyond what we believe is the logical conclusion of their argument (God orchestrating evil and pain) and try to understand that somehow Calvinists, who suggest a God who allows for abuse, is actually a God of love. To give a sense of scale for word count well over 600,000: Rule of thumb for both manuscript format and mass-market paperback is 250 words/page. I DO know of Calvinists who stay away from these blogs excuse they feel they are unwelcome, even though they very much wish to fight against abuse. They cant seem to express their experience and pain without having a conversation with some authentic Calvinist/Reformer/Tulip believer (Whatever that means. Only a source of proof-texts for Calvins Institutes. The same dynamic that caused Charles Darwin to say I am not a Darwinist and Karl Marx to say I am not a Marxist? You should see some of the other ixtian blogs. Recommendations for Non-Calvinistic Resources from - RadioPublic With a long-dead Calvin as Cult Leader? Buuuuuut the problem with this is that trying to pin a Calvinist down on what doctrines they actually believe is like trying to hold a wriggling cat using hands stuck in oven mitts (not that wed be putting the cat in the overgross, and, uh, cruel). It was your comment about illogic that got me to thinking. ISTM, that the fundamental issue in abuse is betrayal. In fact, I doubt any of the Cavlinistas would even agree with that thought process. Some of the resources that have helped me to be a non calvinist are. The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. At first, I thought I had missed something in my Christian walk. A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. @ Jeff S: What scientists call the laws of nature we call normal operations of the sovereign God. How wonderful to remember those days! But I dont think I have to pick. Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, I believe and crossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. I dont want to speak out of turn here, but I wonder if the word calvinist should be banned, like the word bitter, due to the frequency with which it is taken out of context and/or the extent to which it means different things to different people. This is one of the few places where that doesnt happen on a regular basis! Much is mystery and humans so want to solve the mystery. He is also an ordained Baptist minister. I am not trying to argue doctrine, because that is not my or anyone elses business here. If God had not give Adam and Eve a test and just stuck them there in the Garden with no choices, or had God forced them to be good, that itself is not an act of good, and God would have had two robots on his hands. When RC said their are no rogue molecules in the universe, that implies to me that God directs even the smallest action, including the tongue. But are *we* the measure of truth? I may be wrong, but I think Enns is a Calvinist. Jesus statement that my food is to do the will of him who sent me applies in our context. Craigs got it right. @ Argo: So thankful to be free, now. Much longer than I had planned, so Ill stop here. Should that be will be a Calvinist since that is in the future?!?!?! (Also, it would mean that God forced people to sin, since some of our thoughts, words, and deeds, are sinful. I know. He said he found comfort from it. The Baptist tradition is one of the most diverse in Protestant Christianity. These accusations are often followed by the fact that although they cant explain away the opposing verses, nonetheless they know their view is the truth. Yet, their theology is reformed. (LogOut/ I used to think I was too till I went to Bible College and studied it in more depth. This being the case, there is no rations basis for saying that YOU as a person can agree to the first and disagree on the second. Thats why I wrote If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong.. I have a couple key thoughts (key to me anyway) which have taken form as I have extricated myself from reformed theology over the past year: 1. In other words, there are plenty of people who are not part of this movement. Or to say it differently, I loosely hold to the idea that God is in control of every molecule. I figured (maybe arrogantly, but I prefer to think of it as optimism) that I could correct a few misconceptions I saw and then the whole discussion could just go away. Is not the whole batch totally leavened regardless of the amount of yeast? http://www.seattlepi.com/news/us/article/Head-of-Southern-Baptist-school-marks-20-years-4780941.php. Most churches teach Arminian theology. Anyway, its an article called Are There Two Wills In God?, 3) The reason for a woman to study scripture is to better serve her husband, father, children. Anywaythats fine. about how wrong they are about what they have been taught (and therefore believe) about Calvinism/Reform/Tulip. There are 5 major points of disagreement between Calvinists and Arminians. Matthew Pinson Michael Brown Michael Heiser Mildred Bangs Wynkoop Miner Raymond N Nathan Bangs Norman Geisler [footnote]Geisler refers to himself as a Calvinist but his works reflect a more non-Calvinist view of soteriology [/footnote] O P Paige Patterson Philip H. Towner Q R Randolph S. Foster Ravi Zacharias Richard Lenski Richard Watson Wasnt that we didnt know we had differences but we were Christians who were in it together. In response to the devastation of a hurricane: @JohnPiper: Your sons and daughters were eating and a great wind struck the house, and it fell upon them, and they are dead.Job 1:19 I met my husband when he wandered over to Park Street after he attended a service at Tremont Temple. I accept with humility that there are things that I cannot understand. Though it purports otherwise, its every bit as secular as the rest of them, as it has nothing to do with knowing the Father, and everything to do creating a theoretical specification for ones own ideal God. Bring them to heaven? I guess God can use bad things to lead us to a true knowledge of Him. My frustration when Ive discussed Calvinism online has been that its others who want to push me into make it all fit boxes. I know of Hortons book and I shall read that after I finish Olson. All are welcome to participate. "I want to have a discussion with you. And honestly, it doesnt upset me when they do. I err on the side of allowing too much now, just because the value of finally being able to have a voice is so huge! I am sure that there are other places that approach things this wayI just hadnt found them. FWIW, Ive run across many Calvinists (not teachers) who misunderstand Total Depravity. This is as it should be, imo. Ex-Calvinist Daniel Gracely in his book Calvinism a closer look writes: "Calvinist and Non-Calvinist do not share the same meaning of words.. It was their belief and in my mind, their belief only affects them. Ive learned a lot since then. At any rate, the point is that I agree with you (even though I disagree that TULIP is slanderous) that when we start elevating these doctrines to first tier issues, we are causing division within the body. *If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong. Donald Arthur Carson (born December 21, 1946) is Emeritus Professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and co-founder of The Gospel Coalition. Could the person have simply avoided it and gone to someplace else without even making the comment? If the Bible is Gods Word, and we are capable of understanding it, where else can we go to answer the deeper questions except to ourselves? Yes, they too wrote thousands of pages, but at least they werent lawyers! For my part, I honestly dont understand a need to defend Calvinism, or Luther, or the RCC, or Baptists, etc., etc. Your voice is missing! Im a musician in a band the skill level I have now is directly proportional to how many times Ive absolutely made a total fool of myself in front of people. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian). They do not understand why this brings othersgreat pain. Theres nothing wrong with pondering and wondering at the truths Jesus represents. (Okay, Calvin-haters, have at me for this unforgivable understatement. Reformed/Calvinist scholars and Preachers I really like Roger Olson 23. But those of us who are labeled as misconstrue-ers of Calvinism are simply pointing out the logical flaws in their arguments. The first two Baptist theologians were John Smyth (ca. Paul teaches that it is in God that we live and move and have our being (Acts 17:28), Page 80: http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/reformed-theology/arminianism/calvinism-vs-arminianism-comparison-chart/, http://www.pbs.org/thisemotionallife/topic/happiness/helping-others, http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/2013/09/dont-mess-with-texas-baptists_2.html, http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/ravagedfaith.html, In reply to forgiven-to-be-forgiving . I always get a smile on my face when I get an email whichcallsme out on my pitiful understanding of the faith. Off topic but growing up and even today my enduring friendships are with folks who had at least one immigrant parent.. one each from Greece, Italy and Albania. But that doesnt mean I ignore what others have looked at in scripture and believed about it. And any idea that causes people existential damage is wrong. But this is not a problem of Calvinism only, its a problem that all who believe in an all powerful, good God have to contend with. more of an approach to others than a nuance of their own philosophy. I will say they are much more composed personalities. If a megachurch pastor somewhere announced that as a Calvinist he was now going to start killing and eating babies, I would not hold this against small-c calvinists in general. Accept that Calvinists findpeace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. Why isnt it simple, like the works of John Owen and Jonathan Edwards? I pretty much agree with everything JeffB says here. I found an interweb site a while back that had a downloadable version of Calvins Pentateuch (as I call it, by analogy rather than because it contains five of anything in particular). Thank you for helping me out. If I threw a piece of chalk at you, in one very real sense I would be the cause of that chalk flying through the air, having exercised the strength of my right arm. My theologys still up-in-the-air, and I dont care if it never comes down. Pushing Calvin on a hurting individual is like pushing steak on an infant. To insist on it is to cling to an inadequate, incorrect understanding of God, IMO. . I didnt say childish. Thank you for letting me know what you think Jesus meant. The title suggests hes going to argue that something I dont agree with and Cavlinists historically do not believe is false. I was open. Change), You are commenting using your Facebook account. Im just genuinely puzzled about this. That is biblical. Never, once, have I ever entertained such a suggestions about my Calvinist brothers and sisters. God is immense beyond our comprehension and because of that, I do not believe the Calvinist ideas of Sovereignty (or the related principles of TULIP). Wow! My experience with this cult gave me a starting point to question my need for God in my life and showed me how to trust God rather than blindly follow a man-led cult. Arguing these issues sends me down the crazy cycle of shame, pain, abandonment, God not hearing me, etc. 2. BTW-Wade Burleson told his church my conversion story which generated a few laughs. So, I disagree with your choice of word infantilised because in my example Im talking about giving someone hurting exactly what they need (emotionally/spiritually) at the precise time they need it just like breastmilk. It buys you nothing in light of Gods absolute control. This, of course, is totally irrelevant. And, for that matter, why is his style so difficult? Calvinists are Christians and Calvinists and non-Calvinist Christians share a multitude of common ideas and beliefs. I dont understand, then, why, on your blog, you allowed a Calvinism Free For All. I didnt notice any Calvinists telling people that God wanted you to be raped, or something like that. Actually, I admire you for letting it go on, but it would certainly be understandable if you had called a halt to it. Reformed Theology, Rooted in the Bible. I find that to be an amazing God thing. I dont think this one is part of. TWW received a comment from one of our nice Calvinist readers. He is married with two children. As I think youre hinting here, a certain amount of theology (what proportion, I dont know) is in reality nothing more than a minority social science. Thinks youre cute. Aslan completely domesticated and caged within those 2400 pages of Perfect Doctrine and Parsed Theology? Whatever part of the stream a Calvinist has adopted (and there are several streams), calling ones self a Calvinist means taking responsibility for the parts of the broader construct that are damaging. I follow Christ. And, lets face it, which side was harsher on your blog? We may diverge a bit here. Jeff Swith respect, I have never asked anyone to shut up. Ben Witherington III 24. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Arminian_denominations. I find it troubling too. Keith Green (the only musician that made the list) 22. They do not understand that there are alternative answers by good non-Calvinist theologians as well. But it's hard to beat J. I. Packer in any theological camp. And of course, that is just RC Sproul, though I do know this idea of primary and secondary causes has been around for a while and is not primarily a Calvinist idea. The larger discussion is one I think those who wish to explore this issue would find interesting, but I simply cannot quote all of it (and I hope its OK to quote as much as I do here- if this will create legal issues for the blog, please strike the comment). We can all agree that automaton doctrine is evil.

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